Child-free or Child-Less?

On the premiere episode of Emergency Drinks, host Diana Edelman brings on friend Tamar Arslanian to discuss life as a single woman with no children living in NYC and the choice not to have children. Or was it a choice? The two delve into the realities of not having children -- both good and bad -- and share some shocking statistics about both having and not having children.

Tamar Arslanian is the founder of Flirting with Vegan, a NYC-based vegan food tour business. Somewhat ironically, Tamar became a vegetarian because of her cats (obligate carnivores). The arbitrary nature of animals we eat versus those we keep as pets hit her one evening while enjoying rabbit ragu at a  popular West Village restaurant. It dawned on her mid-bite that her cherubic cat Petie was only two floppy ears and a cotton ball tail away from being ragu himself. She wrote about her awakening on her blog I HAVE CAT, single in the city with cats. Her blog caught the attention of an agent and resulted in her book “Shops Cats of New York,” published by HarperCollins. All along while working in the dog eat dog world of New York City advertising. Tamar is a 20+ year resident of Manhattan and shares her home with her three rescue cats Haddie, Gus and Houdini and a rotating cast of foster cats. 

Follow Diana:
https://instagram.com/thedianaedelman
https://tiktok.com/thedianaedelman
https://youtube.com/c/dianaedelmanhosts
https://pinterest.com/thedianaedelman
https://threads.com/thedianaedelman
https://facebook.com/vegansbaby
https://www.vegansbaby.com

Follow Tamar:
https://instagram.com/flirtingwithvegan
https://instagram.com/ihavecat
https://tiktok.com/flirtingwithvegan
https://www.flirtingwithvegan.com

Transcript

Diana Edelman (00:01.23)
Hey, it is Diana with Emergency Drinks, and you can maybe hear my dog Fido. He's having a moment. He's very upset that he is not allowed in the bedroom. When he goes in the bedroom, he likes to bark when I guess over, and that is not acceptable behavior for a podcast. So I am Diana, the host of Emergency Drinks. This is my friend Tamar Arslanian. You got it. And so.

Tom are here is a good friend of mine and we've been friends. we just hit our one year anniversary. Cheers. emergency drinks by the way today are a sub nom blanc from New Zealand. New Zealand. How do you say it with the right, with the Kiwi accent? I'm the wrong person. I know my friend told me once that the difference between Australian and Kiwi as Australians would say seeks and Kiwis will say sex. And what would?

South Africans say? Six. Six. I think? I don't know. You can speak three languages. No. Let me have a sip. I haven't even tried this yet. Is it good? It's good. She gave me the orders of a dry Sauvignon.

It's a beautiful Sunday afternoon. it is. It's got a little. Yeah, I was like, it needs to be dry. And so he gave me like the California ones that these are kind of speaking like, no, no, no. Tomar specifically said dry and she's coming over to shoot the first podcast episode with me and I might walk out if you like gave me a short. I mean, and that was like my that was literally my biggest concern. I would turn on my heels. She'd be like, no, goodbye. Forget it. Minimize frame. Expand. Expand frame.

Okay, I don't know how to do this. We're just gonna wing it. We're gonna have technical difficulties because that is how I roll. But anyway, yes, 100 % apologies in advance for any technical difficulties we may or may not have. But so, for those of you who don't know Tamar, she is the fabulous founder of Flirting with Vegan, and I'll let you go ahead and just.

Diana Edelman (02:04.366)
Why don't you tell the fine folk out there in internet land what to do. The interwebs, the audio wave land. I don't even know. That's a big ask. So my name is Tamar. I've lived in New York for over 25 years. My sort of real career has been in advertising. It's not really what I love to do. I love animals. I love eating. And I actually published a book called Shop Cats of New York. Sorry, my cats are. Lucky just one of her cats just like knocked on the table. Hit the coffee table and then it makes it exciting. It does.

Could have been another earthquake. And my cats are sort of the reason I started examining what I was eating because I was at dinner one night with my dad and we were eating a rabbit ragu. And as I was about to take a bite, suddenly in my head this vision of my cat Petey popped up and he was this chubby white and gray tuxedo. And I was like, what's the difference between this rabbit and this cat? A hop. Yeah, a tail. A pup.

the poof balls. Two floppy ears and a little cotton tail. And the teeth. That's kind of what started it. Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of what started this whole food thing. And then during COVID, I started doing food tours with my friend Beth, who's like the New York City historian of the group. She really does have some fun facts. She does. I can't remember any of those things. We both took the test, you know, to get licensed. Did you pass? So I crammed the night before. and she studied, didn't she? She probably studied for like weeks. Yeah, she did. She bought the books and actually read them.

I found that thing called Quizlet online, so it's like a little flash card. But what it is, it relies on other people that have taken the test to remember what the questions were. That doesn't sound like it's going to help you a lot. So I barely passed it. And I was like waiting. And the funny thing is you sit in a room with people that are like bus drivers. You could be doing anything in the city. You're sitting in the same room in these cubicles taking this test. And the tour guide, the sightseeing.

guide test could be for any sightseeing. So you could be like an architect tour, a historic tour, a mob tour, anything. You still have to know the same stuff. Same stuff. So it's like the food questions were like, is Baba Ghanoush from A, China, B, Japan, C, Egypt? I would really like to take that test just to test my knowledge on random things. But it was like, that was, but then we also had to be like to get to the Bronx, which bus do you take? I was like, I don't know.

Diana Edelman (04:30.51)
I've been to the Bronx once in almost three years I've lived here. I just got on a bus I don't know which one it was and it took me there. So anyway, so that's how it all started and Diana and I met through the

And in a little, I guess, a year in person? Yeah, it was just about a year ago. Yeah, yep. That's great. So here we are. And I think, I was going through a phase when we first met. Are we gonna talk about stuff? Just very, very, very briefly because that's not the bulk of what I want to talk about today. It's our running joke. But yes. So like, when I first moved here, I was very like not trying to be friends with people. For the lack of better.

thing to say like it was taking a picture. It's fine. You can multitask. so it was COVID times and I had a lot of COVID anxiety and I just didn't want to be around people I didn't know. And I didn't want to be like, I'm a little, you know, did you test have you massed? Like, I just didn't want to be that person with a stranger and like be vulnerable like that. And so she kept trying to hang out with me and I kept saying no. but then we had all these deep like chats about like anxiety and depression, anxiety, depression. And then I remembered the first time like,

I was like, I really should be your friend. You were sitting and having like a conversation with your phone to your phone and talking about being being older and single and not having kids. And I was like, like I've had this is like, because you don't, it's not conversations people have very often. So when somebody voices it, it's kind of refreshing. We're having them more now than before. But we'll get into that more.

So like I was like, my god, because for me, I always wanted to have kids. But then like when I was younger, I didn't because I first off, I hate belly buttons. That's so specific. I really hate belly buttons. And I know like babies are born and their umbilical cord becomes their belly button. And that to me was just like gross. Nope, gross, awful. And then I know when you're pregnant, your belly button pops out. So that was a no. And then I also knew you had to get

Diana Edelman (06:39.086)
and I'd eat and you had to get blood work done. And when I was a kid, there were a lot of barriers. Yeah. When I was a kid, needles, like I literally would have to get chased around a doctor's office. Which is ironic. I know. I am tattooed. Yeah. It came later in my adult life. But like, yeah, I just never wanted, I was like, no, no, no. But then like, once I hit like high school and like I met boys, I was like, I could totally have kids. And then like when I was like in my early twenties, I was dating someone. I'm like,

I want to have his kid, my God. And so that was my whole thing. But then I found that like, after that, you know, I was literally looking at men being like, could you be a daddy? And then I went to, like when I turned 30, hold on, let me backtrack. Like I was never set up. Like I never really set myself up to like give myself a chance to have kids. Part of that I think was kind of like running away a bit.

So like when I, you know, I moved to Vegas when I was 25. I moved to Atlanta when I was 29. I moved to Europe when I was 30 and I backpacked around Europe and like did that. And then when I turned 32, I moved to Thailand and I was like, well, like I never froze my eggs. And I was like, so freezing eggs wasn't a thing we did. No, it wasn't our generation. No, not at all. At the time I found out about that. I was already in my 40s. Yeah. Early 40s. And I was like, shit, I got robbed. Yeah. Like,

Because one of my friends who's like, I would say she's five years younger, she had just done it. And I was like, shit, I'm 40, like two. And how much is it? Well, to keep up the story, it's like 10 ,000 a year. Fuck. I think. Or is it just 10 ,000? But I also know that frozen eggs don't have a proven track record of producing a baby. The embryo is sort of more successful to be frozen. But I feel like I was going to go down that path, and I got blood work done or something. And.

I was told that I had low levels of something, and so I never really proceeded with it. And then later come to find out your hormones fluctuate during the month based on your cycle. So that may have meant nothing, but this one old white man made me feel bad. They always said they know everything. And then I gave up. But that's fair. So when I was in Thailand, I was like, my god. I really. Because how old were you then? I was between 32 and 30. Thank you.

Diana Edelman (08:54.702)
32 and 36, just about. So like I didn't move back to the States till I was in my later 30s. And I remember I was dating a guy when I was like 37, I think, and I knew he didn't want kids. And I was telling my friend, I'm like, you know, this is it. Like if things don't work out with this guy, like, or if things work out with this guy, either way, like I don't think I'm having kids. But like up until that point, like I was literally looking at every single man I would meet and be like,

Could you be a dad? Like that's the first thing I thought was like, could I have a child with you? And it was just this pressure I put on myself. And then like this grief when I was like, you know, okay, well, I'm not. When did it hit you when you were like, I'm not gonna have kids? Like what was that moment of realization? I still don't know that it's actually hit me. But like when I was getting ready for this podcast today, like I was doing a bit of research.

But let me, I wanna, before we get into that. When was it, when did you, when did you realize that? So it's, I was always, I always wanted kids and I thought that all, I always loved babysitting, I loved kids and I was like, my life goal was literally get married and have kids. And the career kinda happened as I was like buying time, biding time. But I was like, shit, I need to pay the rent.

So I always get upset when people are like, she prioritized her career. And I'm like, no, it's not like people were breaking the door down. And I was like, no, I must be an advertising executive. Yeah, my god, please. It wasn't like that at all. So it was interesting because I remember I was in my 30s about to turn 40. And there was this woman at work who had just gotten married. So I was like, it could still happen, right? And I cried a lot about it. But it hit me when I went through menopause. I guess I'm still going through menopause. So.

After my period stopped for a year, I was probably 47 and duh, like no brainer that you're not gonna have a kid at that point. But it was real. And like all of a sudden it was like my biology, everything had made the decision. There was like, that was it? And it was like, I should have known before, but that's like really when it hit me. Yeah, I'm waiting for that moment. Cause like it's hit me, but it's only hit me in like the positive sense where it's like suddenly.

Diana Edelman (11:09.966)
You know, I'm free. Like, I'm not looking at, when I go on dates, I'm not looking at could this guy be a good dad. I'm looking at is this dude a dick or not. You know, like, you know, I suddenly have a lot more like value. I put a lot more value in myself. Well, it's so funny because I do think that once you know you're not gonna have a kid anymore, having a man in your life, it's definitely a very different role. Yeah, it's like a side.

Yeah, it's like a nice to have, but it's not like a must have. Where it's like, if you want to have kids in a family, but now it's like, all right, well, what's the purpose of having a guy in my life? They're really going to have to add value. Yeah, exactly. Because it's not like I need their sperm at this point. Like, I'm not having kids. Like, you better be a really good partner. And if you can't tow your weight as a partner, I'm not wasting my time. And that's been really interesting. It's lit, like my whole world just like, whoa, just now when you said that, because really, like, I don't date in New York.

And I think a part of it is, because I just, my tolerance for bullshit is just zero. Like I have such a wonderful life and I have such wonderful friends and relationships. And I'm so happy being alone, which took me a really long time to get there. I'm still not okay being alone, but I have a lot of good friends. So I feel like that. And I have a PLP, which we'll talk about. Yeah. Platonic life partner. Yeah. We'll get into that later. It sets you, but like there is a certain freedom and just a certain...

Your tolerance is just so different because I mean in my 30s I I think I spent the time I was in Thailand I was in love with my best friend and so like and he would look at me and he'd be like holding this kid and be like I Can't wait to have kids. No, he would never say that but he's like I just can't wait to have kids and I'm like in your like and my over he's like And I'm like, I don't know he doesn't want to be with you. But like in my head I was like, yeah, he's like I'm gonna get to this guy like this is you know, and he and I remember I

We went on vacation together and he asked me one day, he was like, you know, if you want to have kids, like I'll have kids with you. And like there was that one part of me was like, my God, really? But the other part of me was like, you're never going to be who I want you to be. Well, that's the thing. The other thing is like, I don't want just to have a kid. I want to have the partner. Yeah. But like how, like, he was, it's a whole thing with this one. Like it was a very toxic, narcissistic, not good relationship, but like that I think is just.

Diana Edelman (13:32.366)
One of the cruelest things I think you can say to somebody too is like, well, if it doesn't work out, I'll have kids with you. I'll throw you a bone. I'll be the kid's dad. And I'm like, you know I'm in love with you, dude. Why would you? Yeah, it's just not nice. I also feel like men, what was I thinking about? I'm sorry, men throw you a bone. I forgot. It's OK. Well, I actually have some stats I wanted to read. OK. Because I feel like. Of course you do. Yes, I do.

because I wanted to like come prepared. So like I was doing some research and I'm just gonna read some of these to you and we can pick what we wanna talk about. Okay, since 20, since 20, since 2007 the nation's birth rate has been declining about 2 % every year on average in the US.

I don't know. I'm guessing it's super. Yeah, it's gotta be. I think part of that obviously is because of COVID. Part of that's because this shit storm of our world digging my carpet. That is what he does. He doesn't actually. I just wanted to make sure that was normal. yeah, no, he doesn't stop. More women without children, 71 % than mothers, 60 % expressed no reproductive regrets. So, so interesting. This kind of ties into what I was gonna say. So there's a woman I follow.

on TikTok and she reads people's stories that they've submitted about regretful mothering. You mentioned this to me. Regretful mothering or something to that effect. And what I think is so fascinating is I feel like it was always like, all right, you're gonna go to school, but you're gonna get married and have kids. Yeah. And that was sort of it. And there was...

It was always like, I had these aunts who had never been married and I was like, no, they're like spinsters, like I never wanna be like that. And then I was like, fuck, I've become that, you know. But they're the cool aunts. Well, I don't have any nieces and nephews, so I'm not. But I mean, I feel like they were the cool ones for sure, but family society kind of saw them as like, it's sad because they never get married. It was never like you have a choice and there's multiple pathways and like one of them is having marriage, marriage and kids and this is the upside and this is the downside.

Diana Edelman (15:41.678)
And I never saw being single and not having kids as having an upside. No, there was no. It always seemed like you were losing. Well, and honestly. And now I feel like we're talking more about the negative parts of motherhood and the positives of not having kids. 100%. But see, I also always say this. The United States is not made for single women or men. It's not made for single people. Like, you have to pay rent on your own. Everything you have to do on your own, your health insurance.

even when you enter the lottery for New York City housing, I'm going to make up the numbers, but let's just say if you're single, you have to make less than $100 ,000 or something, right? But if you're a couple, you have to make less than $120 ,000 or something. So two people could make $60 ,000 and they qualify, but if I make $100 ,000 or whatever it is, I don't qualify. But those are two salaries against one. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, I've always thought like if I had someone to share my apartment with like the amount of rates my god. my god, and it's like in New York. If you have a one -bedroom apartment You're not sharing it. Like I'm not sure I was I was in my 20s Yeah, but yeah, not anymore, but I was like if I had a partner to share with my god So much extra. my god. Can you imagine? No vacation. I can't I mean that's like what 16 17 ,000 extra a year, but not just that like a safari plus a year

You can't be a single mom. No, because you need community. So the two women that I know that have had kids on their own, one of them worked for USAID, which is the government. So she's got pension. She's got pension, but not only that, she would live in, all right, now not everyone would want to do this, but this was in her personality. She lived in like the Central African Republic, Senegal, Haiti, DR.

she's getting paid an American salary in these places. ⁓ gosh, she can afford a cook, a housekeeper, a driver, a gardener, a nanny. The other friend had her mom and, like, she had a house and her mom and dad lived in the house, but it was kind of like a split house situation. So she could afford to do that, but I was like, I didn't want to sacrifice everything to go live with my parents, to have a child when it wasn't just about the child for me. It was about a partnership and the kid. I always tell my therapist, I'd be like,

Diana Edelman (17:57.198)
I want the whole thing. I don't want just a baby for the sake of having a baby. I kind of, I want that life. I want to make a kid with somebody. Yeah. You, I want to see like a little version of me running around. And the person, and the person I love. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's just, I had a thought and it just completely flew out of my brain, but it's always, it's just so. And I remember I would cry so much. And I remember asking one of my friends once, I'd be like, why aren't you upset? Like, didn't you want to have kids? Like, didn't you want to get married? And she was like, yeah, but.

What can I do about it? Yeah, and the only thing that gave me any sense of peace is this other friend I have she happens to be Indian so I don't know if it has something to do with like that culture or religion But she goes not in this lifetime is I've come to terms with the fact that it's just not gonna happen for me in this lifetime And there's something I don't know there's something comforting about that because I'm like, you know, it's just not gonna happen If I beat myself up, it's not gonna make it better. No, it doesn't change anything. You know, it's like you go to the terrible analogy but like if you go to an airport and your flights delayed like

Honey or canceling. Yeah, I missed it. You're getting on the flight. Like that's just you can yell you can scream you can be as mad as you want and put as much energy into being angry and sad but like I wasted a lot of tears a lot of emotional energy. Yeah, I mean, I just think of all the time with my therapist not with my therapist with my friends with my parents sobbing. Yeah, sobbing and it's so funny because my mom always says like like Tomar was one of kids she didn't necessarily want to

She wanted kids and I'm like that's so funny. It's kind of missing the point like I wanted both Yeah, it's like I loved I wanted to have a kids but only if I had a partner Yeah, and it's interesting today because I mean I I'm trying to date which means I'm looking at hinge or bumble or whatever than I am so good for you, it's fucking Infuriating because the guys that I'm matching with they're in their 40s. They're in their 50s And you know what it says want fucking kids. Yeah

And I'm like, why are you matching with me? I am 44 years old. It clearly says it. And I say I don't want kids, but like, do you think that like I'm gonna have a kid? But not just that fun fact. This is one of my facts because it infuriates me. You know, where is it?

Diana Edelman (20:09.838)
I mean I have so many. As women age, so do their partners. The increased genetic mutational liability shouldered by midlife women extends to their male partners as well. Among other maladies, the rate of schizophrenia, for example, an adult offspring of older men increases precipitously, especially when these fathers are in their late 40s, 50s, and 60s. I think autism too. A lot of things. Yeah, Down syndrome. I mean, and it's...

It's wild. Here, I'm gonna read you some more fun facts. Because these are crazy to me. Millennial women had different reasons for their reduced interest in having children. You're millennial too, right? Gen X. Gen X, bye bye. wait, no, I'm cussed. Are you a zillennial? No. Wait, how old are you? I'm 44. I was born October 79. No, no, my sister's on the cuss. She was born in 76 and she's a little. No, I'm, because it's 79.

puts you a millennial. Okay. But I'm like, I'm barely a millennial or 80 put you a, anyway. Is that not a zillennial? Maybe. I don't know. So we have a lot of common experience. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. But it says, so one of the reduced interests reasons for having reduced interest in having kids is greater freedom. They had a greater sense of choosing not to become a mother compared to the gen Xers before them. The social pressures to become a mother were not as great as before. And you know, I mean, growing up, my parents, well,

In sex ed, we're taught about nuclear family, and a nuclear family is 2 .5. And so you're just automatically, this is while you get married, you have 2 .5 kids, and that is your, there you go. That's what you're supposed to do, that's what you're supposed to have. Talking about nuclear family made me think, so today is Father's Day as we record this. Happy Father's Day to the fathers. Happy Father's Day belated, because it's not gonna be Father's Day. No, it's not gonna be Father's Day. I hope you had a great Father's Day. If you are a good father. Please don't make me spit my white out.

It made me think of the fact, what the fuck was I gonna say? We're talking about choosing not being racist. father want nuclear family. So I remember too, like I talked to my sister about this a lot and I talked to my therapist about it a lot. It's like the thought of my parents dying is terrifying because we don't have our own nuclear. We're still a part of our original nuclear family. I talk to my therapist about this all the time. We don't have our own. I mean, look, I'm not saying it's easy to lose a parent for anyone, but if you have a husband and kids in your home network. Yeah.

Diana Edelman (22:34.766)
we're still part of that OG nuclear family. That's literally, I think that is what, that terrifies me. So not to change the subject, but COVID related, I have long COVID, as you know, but the world doesn't really know about it. And I realized I had long COVID because like five or six days after testing negative, I went out for a couple of drinks with my friends.

And on the way home, I was thinking about my parents dying and how I would be alone. And I started Googling assisted suicide because I'm like, well, when they die, what am I going to do? Like that's I'm alone. I don't have somebody. And who that I mean, I am in therapy. I'm fine. Like I'm not suicidal anymore. But also one of the symptoms of long COVID is like severe depression. So if you have that post COVID, like please get it checked out. It is not your life. But.

It's something like I've had to, like, I don't, I try not to think about it because it's terrifying to me. Well, so my sister and I were talking about it yesterday because my parents were in town, kind of like an early Father's Day thing, and my parents are in their early 80s. And my sister jokingly said, you know, especially with my mom, you know, because I talk to my mom more frequently. I talk to my mom every day. We text, so even if it's not that, my sister jokingly says like when she passes away, you're gonna have to put me like a medically -induced coma. And I laugh, but you know, and she was saying like, I said,

because she gets more emotional about it than I do. I don't think she'd mind me saying this. And I used to get emotional about it, but it's interesting. I jokingly said to her, I feel like I'm dead inside. She's like, I do want to be dead inside. I think what it is is I've just stopped letting my mind go there. So I don't know if that's healthy or not, to be honest. But it's kind of, again, along the terms of what are you going to do about it anyway? It's not going to help. Yeah, but that's also where your PLP comes in.

yeah, my PLP. So we had to, I saw this on Tik TOK and this was like years ago. So I have this friend in my building, her name is Beth and she's a little older than I am, like seven years older than I am, but she's been single for a long time as well. And we met like 10 years ago. So then during COVID we...

Diana Edelman (24:45.038)
our friendship kind of went to the next level, which was, it was more sort of like familial instead of like, let's get together once a week. It was like, what are you doing tonight? Do you want to make dinner tonight? Do you want to watch a movie tonight? Cause we were in quarantine. Yeah. You were like each other's pod. Exactly. So then it was funny because we're super, super different. Like, and it made me realize how, how couples who are really different get along. Because like, I'm always like, let's do this, let's do that. And she's kind of down for anything. So she's the person that you always need the person that's down for anything. Right. And I'm the kind of person.

I've never traveled by myself, even though I'm like very extroverted. You've never traveled by yourself? I'm terrified of it. that's all I ever do. I'm so scared of it. So I don't like to be alone. So it's so funny. yeah, okay. Because she can sit in her room and be like happy as a clam with a book forever or whatever. And so it's funny. So in that way, I feel like I need her more. You know, it's interesting. But I was watching a TikTok once and it's like a trend now, PLP, Splatonic Life Partners. And there's actually this Korean movement. I want to say it's the.

Yes, yes. Same thing like they're they're becoming celibate and they're creating communities and families with their female friends like even on this TikTok I was watching I forgot who it was but she was like I'm buying a house with my platonic partner like yes men are gonna come and go they can live with us they cannot live with us but my primary relationship is with my PLP and it's funny because whenever I would sign my lease my will renew my lease I would be like what I can't leave my apartment.

Beth is here. My mom would always be like, well, she's just a friend. She might leave. It's interesting. Beth's not leaving. You guys are, no. And if you leave, you're going to get a place together. I know. But the societal thing is, you can stay for a man, but you shouldn't stay for a friend, which is so interesting. That's bullshit because I'm sorry. No, I agree. I agree, but. Yeah, that is. It's like the perception of, she's a friend. She could, the minute she meets a man, she can leave you. You know what I mean? And it's like, just so interesting. Anyway, so I think that's kind of the reason too. I'm not actively.

for a romantic partner and I'm content but I don't know if that's good or bad because I love to have a romantic and just what I love to have somebody look into my eyes and cherish me. Yes. Like of course. Yeah. I don't know that I yeah like I would love to have that but I just don't and I'm not unhappy. I'm also not working towards making it happen. Well New York is a really hard place I feel to make it happen like. Well you have to go on a million app dates. Also I think the apps at this point have made it

Diana Edelman (27:07.406)
so easy for us to lose interest. Like if a guy messages me and doesn't ask me a question, you're like, nevermind. I'm like, no, there's this thing I've been reading about called the burned haystack method. And it's fascinating, but basically it's like you block and you block to burn. What does that mean? So it kind of is the idea is like you're looking for a needle in a haystack. So every person that doesn't, doesn't get it, they're out like no second chances. So if a guy messages me and is like,

W -I -D. I'm like, you can't even speak a sentence. Burn. You're out. Like, I'm filtering you out. Or like typo, you're out. Yeah. Typo, spelling your, your, your, there, there. Yeah, I was just gonna say there. You're getting the wrong there. No. I mean, no. I try to be a little lenient on that because my dad's not a good speller, but my dad is very, very smart. Look, I'm not a good speller, but I know the difference between there and there. Yeah, but sometimes I don't pay attention and then I'm like, shit, I should have used apostrophe R -E and I didn't, but I didn't even realize it. We have to not be friends anymore, Dana.

Get out. I'm keeping the wine. okay. So here, hold on. I want to read a couple more of these before we... Okay. So wait, oops. I was looking at the time. yeah. One in five adults don't want children and they don't regret it later. The most frequently mentioned effects of not having kids, which I kind of feel like should be not this. I feel like they're actually talking about people that had kids, but also it could be both of us.

The most frequently mentioned effects are distress, raised depression and anxiety levels, lowered self -esteem, feelings of blame and guilt, somatic complaints and reduced sexual interest. Of not having kids? Of not having kids. I think because having kids distracts you. that's fair. The distraction. So I think you have more time to think about yourself. It's like you have so much time to like examine your belly button or whatever that expression is. navel gazing. Yeah. Thank you.

But I think that's what it is. We have so much more time. You don't fucking have time to deal with any of that. Yeah, you're literally just trying to make, I mean, props to parents out there. Like, I mean, I cannot imagine, like I look at kids these days and I'm like, if I had a kid, it gives you a purpose. It gives you a purpose. Yeah. So it's not just a distraction. It's a purpose too. Like, right. When you don't have a kid or a husband, it's like, what's my purpose? And then you realize like, you find your purpose or you're just like, I don't have one. I can lay in bed all day on a Saturday. And that's awesome. I do that.

Diana Edelman (29:31.566)
But I'm saying like, I'm sure people with kids, like I have a friend who is my age, she's maybe 52, and she has two kids that are like tweens, preteen tween, and she's like fucking driving to soccer practice, orchestra practice, the vizy, tutoring, and I'm like, after a full day of work, and I'm like, my God, I'm like watching Netflix drinking wine at like six o 'clock.

I'm going to bed at night and I'm going on vacation by myself. I'm like, I'm not going on vacation. But I'm going on vacation. You're going on vacation with friends. Yeah. And you can afford it because you're not. I can't imagine having to think about. Not today. I worry about the money that I have saved for just my fucking self. I can't imagine having to worry about kids. And the funny thing is, you know, my parents have saved money. Yeah. And it's so interesting because it's like, when did that happen? Like, when did it come about that? That was kind of like.

the norm was like to save up money for your kids. Because they're smart. No, are they? Well, they were raised by people who had gone through the depression and they didn't have money. And so they didn't have money. So they, I mean, like my parents would be like, no, no, no, we're not going to spend this money. We're going to save it. And they're very financially like knowledgeable. My parents were like, we always had to save the max in our 401k. Yeah. I mean, and which I haven't saved in years.

I just learned a year and a half, a year ago that the 401k I started in 2005 was just money. It was never invested in anything. You're fucking kidding. No. So 16 years, or 15 years, of just having money sitting at - Aren't they supposed to invest it? Yeah, but you're supposed to tell them what to do with it. You better make sure your money's not just sitting as cash. No it is. It's just flatlined. I'm watching graphs. Don't worry. I'm watching graphs.

But you know what, I feel like given the way that the economy has been, you may be netting out. Like, I don't know. I mean, I probably at this point, but no, but I open too. Because now that I'm self -employed, like I don't have a 401k. I have a Roth IRA and I have a traditional IRA. And so every month I put 500 into. That's a septa or something. Self -employed. Yeah, that's a no. That's, it's something. Okay. You don't want me talking financials. A freelance thing. Okay, any of those. I'll tell you.

Diana Edelman (31:45.038)
But it's something that I know what it is, but I would have to like look and refresh my memory. But I don't, yeah. Anyway, but so. I haven't saved in like six years. Well, I mean, I put it. I've been using my savings. I mean, I just quit my job. So like literally I had to transfer money out of my high, my high -yield savings. But the way I think about it is that's what it's there for. We're so fortunate that we have it. That's, we don't have to worry about putting it into college. Yeah, but then what happens if I don't get a job in a year? Then I'm fucked. I can't live. I don't have money.

Your parents aren't gonna leave you in a cardboard box. But I'm just saying though, like, it's just the pressure you have once again, as like a single person. a thousand percent. It's like, fuck. Yeah, like you see all these people doing all these great passion projects and you're like, they're married, that makes sense, that's how they're gonna put it. My husband's rich. You compare yourself to these people and you're like, how are they? Like, that happens a lot in New York City. Like, it didn't happen with my friends in my 20s, but I know there's a lot of people now. They're trust fund kids. And like, I can't imagine, like,

being somebody who's like, you know, hardly making any money and then like being friends with someone and you're comparing yourself to someone. That's the hardest. Comparison is the thief of joy. But like I look at my building and I live in like a luxury building. Yeah. I'm like, I really honestly don't know how I pay my rent every month because it is very expensive. But then I look at these kids and I'm like, how are you? But their parents are always going to be somebody in a better position. Yeah, of course. It never matters. And I used to compare myself.

another weird thing. I don't do it anymore, thank God. But like, yeah, it's hard not to compare yourself. I think I totally get that because you're like, why can't that be me? But then you think about it and you're like, well, it could go the other way too, right? So many people are looking at us saying, why can't that be me? I used to have, so when I quit my job and turned 30 and went backpacking and then when I moved to Thailand, people, especially married women, would be like, I'm so jealous. Like, you're so brave. And then the second thing was, I wish I could do that. And I'm like,

Well, you made a choice and I made a choice. And I'm like, that's, I'm like, if it's, if it makes you feel any better, I wish I could be where you are. Like I even make a choice. No, cause you weren't. I didn't, I didn't. Like I literally, my choice was this is what I am 30. I want to do this. I want to do this. And literally, so I'm, I'm very fortunate where my parents gave me money to help me travel. And the whole, they would have been setting this money aside. And my mom said, Diana, this money was for grad school, for your wedding or for a down payment on a house.

Diana Edelman (34:06.286)
And I was like, well, I don't have any of those things right now. And she's like, would you like it for your trip? And I was like, yep. So I took that money. That was supposed to be for all of these other big life moments. And so I went backpacking. But it's like, that was my choice. It wasn't stay and continue the same thing. Because why I was living in Atlanta, I hated living in Atlanta. I hated my job.

why am I gonna stay and do this and go through the motions when I know what I wanna do is this and I wanna live my life and I wanna give myself the best chance I can at living happily in the moment versus looking back and being like, well, it's 60, I have the kids and the white picket fence and I'm gonna retire and now I'm gonna go like. And then you run into a tech and you can't do it. Yeah. Fuck, yeah. You know, it's.

But it's interesting because I would always look at people like you and be like, my god, I wish I could do that. And people would be like, you can. And I'm like, I guess I can. But it's just not in my genetic. You don't want to. I do. I want it in theory. But it's not in my makeup. I was always the person that was like, I got to climb the ladder. And I go, bleh, bleh. And I was so worried about that kind of stuff and wrapped up in it that to me, it would have felt like losing or quitting. I had just stepped back. Which it's not. It's not any of those things. It's giving yourself a new chapter to do something else. It is. But not.

in my mind, not in the mindset that I was in, right? But also, I was raised to be a career person. In high school, my dad's like, you know, if you want to do public relations, you should join the army. And I was like, no. Little did I know, which I yell at my dad all the time, not yell, but I'm like, dad.

Why didn't you tell me like the real reason you wanted me to be government? Like, why didn't you just tell me that when I was growing up? Nine to five. Was like, you're going to have great benefits. And then when you retire, you're set for life. Like, how do you say that? I might have considered it. But I was like, I'm not wearing fatigues. I don't want to join the army. I don't want to go through basic training. I'm not athletic. Like, yeah, I missed it. But but nonetheless, like, postal workers are like, yeah, my God.

Diana Edelman (36:09.326)
But when I was looking at colleges, my parents, I wanted to be an actress and I wanted to be a theater major. And my parents, like Diana, because they obviously have always been very supportive and supported me through college, they were like, we are not gonna pay for your college education if you get a degree in theater. Like you've gotta get something that will transfer into real life skills. So I got a degree in PR.

Yeah, none of them. I feel like no undergraduate degree actually transfers into real life. No, I mean, now if like I apply for a job and like, what was your GPA? I'm like, fuck, I shouldn't even be applying for this job. Like, why are you asking me? I graduated college in 2001. I don't remember anymore. girl, I graduated in the 90s. It's so funny. We are perfectly aged. You know what's funny though? Because I remember when millennials first came on the scene, they're like, who do they think they are? Because our generation was very, if somebody asked.

If a boss asked you to do something, you did it. You would fucking do it, no questions asked. And then these millennials came on and you'd be like, I need you to do it. And they'd be like, what's the objective? Fuck you. The objective is to not make me angry. The objective is to do it because I said so. But it's so smart, right? Like now in retrospect, it's fucking smart. We saw it as sort of insubordination. But the funny thing is, as millennials get older, you realize like the commonalities we have because like you guys had...

dial -up in high school. We had dial -up in college, but it was still like these formative years even though, you know, we thought, or you had it in junior high and we had it in college. no, no. I had, we were on AOL chats in senior year of high school. that was lucky. He's very cute. He's from Thailand. Here, well, before we wrap up, I want to just read a couple more fun facts. And for the people that don't have the video of it, she picked up my orange and white cat who's super cute. I was trying to show look. Yes. Okay.

New figures from the Pew Research Center find that of Americans aged 18 to 34, 69 % who have not been married would still like to marry at some point, while 23 % are not sure and 8 % do not want to get married. Meanwhile, the number of people in this age group who don't have children would like to start a family someday. Wait, okay, I read that wrong, but anyway, I spoke it wrong, but that's what I said.

Diana Edelman (38:19.982)
Just over 51 % of people aged 18 to 34 who are not parents report wanting to have children someday. While 33 % said they are not sure about having children and 18 % don't want them at all. 57 % of men without children reporting they would like to have children one day and just 45 % of women said they want children someday. So there's already guys good luck. Yeah, because guys don't have to take on so much of the burden. Yeah, no, they don't have to give birth either.

Yeah, but also like, yeah, what do they call that invisible labor or emotional labor? Like women take on a lot of things that are unseen work wise. There was this guy in TikTok talking about like, he's like, I realized that even my wife refilling the soap in the bathroom is like a chore that is actually takes up a lot of mental planning and anyway, sorry. No, that's okay. No, you're right.

Many factors are pushing women to choose not to have children, the cost of raising children, healthcare costs, geopolitical factors, and lack of access to reproductive care are among the reasons women are saying no to having children. I would just also like to point out that the lack of women's rights that are suddenly starting to pop up. We're going backwards. It's another reason why women now are not going to want to have kids. And then they're, do they just ban in vitro or something, or they're talking about it in South Korea? No, I think it was like the Baptist church. right. It's disgusting.

It's foul. Okay, we're almost done. Changing family dynamics and less pressure on young people to have kids are making the decision easier for some young people. Approximately 73 % reported they don't feel pressure to have children from their parents, which I have to say my parents have never pressured me. I've been so lucky my parents have never pressured me. I always felt bad because I knew they'd be great grandparents. I know. Well, my parents actually got to be great grandparents, but my brother had a kid 20 years ago.

almost 21. They got to have that experience. Well, I mean, it was a hard experience. But I remember when we found out that my brother's, the mother of my brother's child was pregnant. I was with the bad guy that I was in love with, like the only guy I've ever wanted to have kids with. And I remember I was a little drunk and I went into his room the night I found out crying and I was like, I'm supposed to have the baby first. Like I was and then and then mom took the name that I was going to name my kid.

Diana Edelman (40:36.59)
that's like a sign filled up with I was real pissed. okay, sorry And then 15 % said they felt some pressure from their parents and 12 % said they felt a lot of pressure That was the last fact because I had already read the first the other one about women aging and the men aging and the fact that it's not just the woman's like issue if the child Has developmental issues. It's because right both of you. Meanwhile, we're geriatric pregnancies if we're not raised who decided to name it that it's it's a terrible name about

I don't know, anything? Late, what else could it be? Genetics or, I don't know, but it doesn't have to be geriatric. You're just a little bit old, your eggs aren't as strong. I think after 40, your eggs are like put anyway. They're like eh, like if you're 40, like chances are you're not. I learned a lot today about this. Bad eggs, you have bad eggs basically after 40. So even if I were. Damn genetics. I know, but it's like.

I get people have asked me, well, like, what if you met someone now that wanted to have kids? Would you have a kid? And part of me is always like, well, I'm too tired. But I'm like, yeah. But then the reality is I can't. Like, you can. You can. You can use someone's egg. No, the whole point of me having kids is I want to have a kid that's a part of me. Yeah. Like, you can adopt. I will 100%. I would look, if I met a guy and he wanted to have children with me and he was financially stable and well off, I would consider it. Really? Like an infant? No, no, like adopting.

Yeah, an infinite? No, because I also don't want to be 60 and raising a 20 year old. Because, I mean, my niece and I love her, she's 20. And it is a lot. Like, my brain... I mean, the shit that my parents had to put up with, especially my mother with me with all my mood disorders and shit in my 30s and even 40s.

She was in her sixties. It's hard. It's hard because like you have all this knowledge and you're like, I just want to give it all to you and you can't. And then it's like, I'm so why I just want you to listen. But then it's like, well, when I was your age, yeah. I mean, my mom, you know, my mom was like, dang it. You were just like that. And I 100 % believer, but like as a grown up now to listen to like anyone under the age of like me, be like, blah, blah. I'm like, just wait till you get to my age. Like.

Diana Edelman (42:56.046)
therapy, lots of therapy and like, it's true. Like we, there is like a chart I saw once and it has something to do with any topic. And it kind of goes with, with life too. When you learn a little bit about a topic, you feel like you're like know everything about it. If you don't realize how much about the topic there is to know. And the more you get into it and the older you get, you realize how little you know.

But you don't realize that when you're young. So we look at people in our 20s and 30s and the way they speak with such confidence and we were like that too. And it's like, you guys, sweet babies. Yeah. I have no idea. I always say like, I would love to go back to like, and maybe not my 20s, but like my 30s, knowing what I know now. Like I, if that's like the one - My life would be so different. my God. Mine too. Like maybe I would have kids because I would be like a different -

Like my mentality. You look for a different kind of person. Yeah, like I would look for guys that are like not the assholes I used to date. But yeah. I'm getting drunk. ha. Sorry. And on that note, on that note, we're at 44 minutes. All right, so I do have one last question. Where was your most memorable emergency drinks in your life? my god. It doesn't have to be like the most memorable because that's not fair. But like, where was one place that you've had drinks where you're like,

You mean like I really needed to have a drink or I needed that bonding moment with somebody? That's really tough. Yeah, right now. I don't know. Okay. Well, like, so there's a story behind emergency drinks for me is that like we, my friend, my coworker and I used to be like, let's get emergency drinks and we go to this bar. So like where, if you could have emergency drinks anywhere, let's do it like that. Where would you want to have them? Bellini's at Chibriani. tell everyone about that. Cause I don't, it's a white peach.

Bellini at Cipriani. They came up with the Bellini. Where's Cipriani? Well, there's a few of them. I think the original one's in Venice, but you can go to one in Grand Central. Venice, Italy or Venice? Venice, Italy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like, yeah, I remember going to like a fundraiser, like a Cosmopolitan fundraiser where like,

Diana Edelman (45:07.982)
Cosmo when I was in advertising in my 20s and it was in one of the Cipriani buildings. Like the Da Bank one? Yes. I went to an event there. I think that's where I went and I think this was back in the day. I think I had like 10 Bellinis. They invented Bellinis? I really didn't think that. yeah. Really? It's delicious. Okay. They're expensive but they're delicious. Many expensive things are delicious. Many delicious things are expensive. Alright, well I'm pretty drunk. On that note.

Cheers, thank you for joining me. Thank you. Be sure to follow, subscribe, comment. Let me know what you think. Do you have kids? Do you want to have kids? Are you my age? Are you 20? Are you 16? What do you think about having kids or not having kids or being single or not being single? Let me know in the comments of something. I don't know where yet.

This is still a work in progress, but thank you all so much for joining and we will see you next time. Bye.